The two roads...

I've been a retirement community in Florida, and I can't see myself ever willingly retiring to the land of motorboats putting along at 5mph in manatee wake zones. It was probably one of the cheaper retirement communities, but it certainly left me with no interest in any of the expensive ones.

So what can you tell me about the second road, the stop that doesn't involve the stereotypical white shoe law firm on K St., DC or whatever the streets in NYC are? What do ya'll plan on doing with your JDs after you graduate? (Jeremy might have the skills to take over for Dahlia Lithwick when she's retired, but that's a while off). Academia and judgeships can be nice dreams, but the slots are scarce. Think-tanks, non-profits, political staffers... any way of making those roads sound more concrete?

There was actually a panel on campus here yesterday about merging law careers with politics... an election lawyer, a Republican fundraiser, chair of the Democratic Convention, and Democratic media go-to-guy Chris Lehane. They said start by volunteering. (More in a news article for the Harvard Law Record I've yet to write.) I obviously don't have any answers -- I'm hoping like you are that these paths become clearer and more concrete, once the goals become clearer and more concrete too I guess... but there are people out there doing interesting things with their law degrees, so it's possible. That's the bulk of the point I was trying to make. Stuff is possible. We're active participants in charting the roads to where we end up. I hope. I don't know.

Amanda,

If you're looking for a radical departure from the white shoe firm, I'd be happy to talk to you about my path in the Army. You might actually want to talk to those "pariah" recruiters who the protesters shout off of some campuses. And, as my handle suggests, not all of us are right wing arch-conservatives.

I have to strongly disagree with the "grades matter very little" school of thought. Perhaps the higher ranked the law school, the less grades count; however, from the perspective of a recent graduate, meritocracy is still alive and well.

Indeed, that is even more so the case when dealing with what has been termed the "second road." If the Department of Justice, a U.S. Attorney's Office, or Senate Judiciary Comm. staffer's your aim chances are you are going to need top 15% credentials and a clerkship under your belt. If you are aiming for the OLC, OLP, or similar legal policy outfit, bump that clerkship requirement up to a federal court of appeals.

Don't get me wrong, there are other ways to get there but they usually involve luck or contacts.

Even think-tanks and non-profits like the Institute for Justice have fairly exacting standards.

All of that said, I think law schools should do a better job of informing their students of opportunities outside of "big law." As Jeremy notes, it's largely up to the individual to volunteer, attend national conferences of the Federalist and/or American Consitution Society, and don't be afraid to contact people with jobs you find interesting. The worst that will happen is they ignore you. Usually, however, they will be more than happy to talk about their positions, the road they took to get there, etc.

Most law schools give students access to a website called the "Leadership Library" or something like that. It's a huge database of phone numbers and sometimes e-mail addresses of nearly everyone in federal and state government.

I just wanted to say that I loved this post. It really lets us, pre-law students, to think more deeply in whether the reasons we wanted to study law for are the right ones. If we take me for an example, I guess that more than 50% of my reasons to study law are totally financial. The rest, I think, is about how 'cool' it is be a lawyer, althought lawyers are somewhat hated by the public.

Again, great post.

Perhaps I've had a different law school experience than many so far (I'm a 2L), but I don't feel as though there has been a severe shortage of non-big firm opportunities presented to us for utilizing our law degree, despite the fact that I am going to, and want to be going to, a big firm this summer. The more common problem I see among my classmates is that they came to law school without any desire to be a lawyer or anything related to being a lawyer. Instead, they graduated college and had no idea what they wanted to do, so law school was merely a default that didn't require a commitment about a future career path. Nor does it require organic chemistry as medical school does, or several years of being in the 'real world' as an MBA does. Many of these people are still unhappy with their choice, which is compounded by the uneasiness of looking at the pile of student loans that they are accumulating. So my advice to the pre-law students out there is that if you want to be a lawyer, or at least if you want to go to law school, that's wonderful. It can be a lot of work to get where you want to be in your career, but seemingly limitless opportunities do exist. However, if you are going to law school as a fallback option to defer your career choice for another 3 years, it is a very expensive choice that may not yield the results you want.

"We can keep going: we’re at law school; now try to make law review; get the right summer job; second year on-campus interviewing; third year apply for clerkships; take a job with the most prestigious firm that’ll hire us; get on the partnership track; make partner; retire wealthy; move to the most expensive retirement community in Florida; buy the fanciest headstone."

There is something terribly disturbing about that. Perhaps not for everyone. All we've got is our lives; if the ultimate goal is the "fanciest headstone" our time may well have been wasted. I enjoyed your post, Jeremy. I already realized everything that was written, but it doesn't hurt to see it in writing.

It’s the path of least resistance. The firms come calling. They make it easy. The salary is high.

Generally speaking, Jeremy, I think you've got the spirit, but like Dahlia, you miss s few things.

This is one of those instances where the Harvard experience is different. At many schools, it's not so easy to get the firm job. I know some of my classmates are still struggling at Georgetown, and I imagine the plight of a law student at a smaller, regional school could be even worse. That student may well have incurred debt comparable to my own and may be as qualified, if not more so, for the jobs we all sought in the fall, but grades and reputation matter a great deal. This is as true in many nonprofits as it is in high-paying firms. What's "easy" enough to be a default at some schools is something fewer achieve elsewhere.

That said, I agree that it's good to look beyond the firms and take control of your career. And I most definitely agree that people should have the nerve to care, as it will make law school a much more rewarding journey.

Hey --

The commenters who've said it's different as far as grades and jobs depending on the school are right; I missed the boat by not making my piece reflect that. I don't know what kind of advice I could possibly have for people at schools where it really is a battle for not just the best jobs but any jobs -- other than to say it sucks to be in that situation, working hard for three years to get the degree and then finding few or no options out there. It probably means the point of critical decision-making moves back -- instead of having the luxury to wait until you're a 3L to decide if the big firm life is for you, or public interest, or something else, I guess you kind of have to decide before you start, and pick the place that really maximizes those chances -- so you don't get as much room for error. But, yeah, point taken. Not every school provides students the luxury of getting to make choices -- and certainly that leads to students that are more qualified and much more equipped to succeed losing out to people who've worked less hard but have a shinier credential. I don't know what else to say.

The only thing that can be done is to point out to potential law students that there is definately a point at which school reputation stops. Moreover, it probably stops a lot higher on the chain than they might realize. Buddha mentions Georgetown, I went to Vanderbilt (not as high as a national power as Georgetown but still somewhere around 16-18) and can state unequivocally that unless a student had a GPA of 3.4 to 3.5 (top 25-30%), they stood relatively little chance of landing a big firm job or other similar position in government.

The lesson I would derive from this for students considering law school is the following: Unless you have been accepted to one of the top 8 or so law schools in this country, your GPA at all of the institutions dropping down from there pretty much all the way to 50's or so is fungible. That is, a 3.7 at Tulane is going to be more impressive than a 3.4 from a Vanderbilt or Washington & Lee.

If you, as a current undergraduate, can receive more aid or scholarship money from a lower ranked school, take it. And, although it might be speculation, you probably stand a better chance of performing academically against the cross-section of students at the lower ranked school than the higher ranked ones.

This holds true not just for big firms but for clerkships, government positions, and non-profits.

To that end, and this might go without saying, but you should apply to a lot of law schools. While it's true it will cost you a few extra hundred dollars on the front-end, it's always good to have a larger number of choices.

I'm new here and I'd like to thank the people responsible for this site. Being pre-law, I've found it an intelligent and very interesting discussion - especially this thread.

Anyway, I wanted to throw a question along this line. Not sure if this discussion is still open (it seems the posting stopped a couple days ago - and I'm very unfamiliar w/ blogging - this is a blog, right?) Anyway, I've got the time.

I've split the last two and a half years between working on foreign relations on Capitol Hill and working in a big corporate firm in New York. For me, the juxtaposition in terms of interesting and engaging work could not be more stark. Jeremy's post is right on: ironically, I was just interrupted by an associate who related the exact sentiment I can empathize with: that feeling mid-way down the track. "I was thinking, how the hell did I get here? I was an idealistic undergrad in poli sci, now I'm sifting through decades-old boxes of documents for IBM because they kill people."

I'd like to avoid that. I'm going to NYU in the fall, where I'm hoping that the quality of legal education, or at least the opportunities their reputation obtains, will allow me to do that. Anyway, to my question: Are there any good resources for pre-law students considering public-interest, policy-related careers? Anyway to map out at least a general path to something like that? I realize that the well-trodden corporate track is, to mix metaphors, spoon-fed. But I want to try and have some concrete ideas of alternatives. Any suggestions?

Once again, I feel lucky to have found this discussion. Best of luck to you all.

I seem to recall some book floating around out there that was about non-traditional careers in law. When you get to law school, ask career services for it.

Be proactive early. Talk with professors who teach in areas you might be interested in -- international law to use an example from your career experience. Network. Don't be afraid to contact people out of the blue. If you want a non-traditional career, you've got to go out and get it, it's not going to come to you like big firms do for On-Campus recruiting.

I have a friend who worked in trade overseas before he went to law school. Now he's working as counsel to a U.S. trade Ambassador in Europe. He worked summers in Europe and got the job by calling around and doing the footwork himself.

I really can't give you any specific resources because it depends on what area you want to explore.

My thoughts look like Brian's. Figure out what you want to do and find people who do it and bother them. Easier said than done, obviously. Also I'm sure NYU has career people, in a closet somewhere without lights, that deal with people who want to do non-firm stuff. Probably next door to the counseling office. Or in stall #3 in the bathroom. I don't know. But somewhere. Gotta be some resources for alums who realize five years out that they want to get out of firm life.

I really enjoyed this thread. I'm a pre-law myself, and I'm still waiting on where I'm gonna end up going (though right now its Georgetown, of the places to which I've been accepted.)

I really sympathize with KCC's plight. Unless something like trial law or negotiation can replicate the daily thrill I got from working in electoral politics during my year off between UCSD and law school (or even student governemnt as an undergrad), then I'll be forced into a poorer career outside of the big firms. Too bad really, I was hoping to live a life which involved nicer shoes.

I am an undeclared freshman. I want to go into the field of law. I know children and law meet somewhere but I don't know where. Ive done some research and it seems like it would be more along the field of social work. There is no point in going to law school to become a social worker. The field of Social work itself is not what I want to do. My longterm goal is to become a judge. I need some suggestions